Recovering From COVID-19 Stress and Loss

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For many people of all ages, the past year has been traumatic. Mental health problems have been reported among people hospitalized with COVID-19, while healthcare workers and others experienced high levels of stress on the job. Many people lost loved ones to the illness or were out of work. And children, who depend on social interaction for learning and development, were restricted to tight family pods.

What has been the emotional and mental toll on all of us and how do we begin to heal? Kathy Clegg, MD, Director of Ambulatory and Community Psychiatry at UH Cleveland Medical Center and Erum Ahmad, MD, Medical Director of the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Unit at UH Rainbow Babies and Children’s Hospital, offer their advice on finding your way back.

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Transcript

Pete Kenworthy

At the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, we were all told that some of us will be taking a break for a few weeks, right? Like school would take a break. Maybe we’d work from home for a little bit, but then things got worse and they, and they got a lot worse. Right? Many things closed. Bars and restaurants closed. People lost their jobs. Lots of people lost jobs. We saw friends and loved ones get sick and, in some cases, die. And the country was really in trouble. And maybe the worst part about this was we didn't have any idea when it was going to end. Now, fortunately, I didn't have anyone close to me pass away, but I did have a close friend in the hospital for five nights. And that was probably the scariest part for me.

Macie Jepson

You know, the same for me, Pete. No one close, but we do know people who lost their lives. Our daughter was sick in the very beginning when so little was known. It was, it was really scary. She was depressed. She was plucked from her college, like in the middle of the night and told, take all of your things home and never to return, never to graduate and never to experience all of those things. It was, it was a sad time as well as a, as a scary time. And, you know, people, when they think about the long-term consequences of the past year, I wonder how we’ll, how we’ll come out of it and how healthy we’ll be emotionally. And our daughter is looking back now at all of her throwback photos from a year ago and reliving it. This was the last time I saw so-and-so. This was my last time I was on campus. And it's like, she's going through the, all of those emotions again. But were there some positives possibly to this as well? You know, what happened to our mental health during COVID-19? And can we truly recover? Is there such a thing as pandemic PTSD?

Macie Jepson

Hi, everyone. I'm Macie Jepson.

Pete Kenworthy

And I’m Pete Kenworthy. And a reminder today that we're doing this over Zoom if things sound a little wonky sometimes. You know, this is a tough subject. You know, some have called 2020 the toughest year in American history. And it certainly has been the toughest in modern times, right? We've all been through a lot and there's no real roadmap on how we get back to normal. You know, we haven't been through a pandemic before, at least not in more than a hundred years.

Macie Jepson

Joining us today to help sort through the mental state of America is Dr. Kathy Clegg, Director of Ambulatory and Community Psychiatry at UH Cleveland Medical Center. Dr. Clegg, thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Thanks, Macie.

Pete Kenworthy

We also have Dr. Erum Ahmad, Medical Director of the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Unit at UH Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital with us. Dr. Ahmad, thanks for joining us as well.

Dr. Erum Ahmad

Thank you so much for having me.

Macie Jepson

Let's start high level. Are we broken as a country? I mean, what are the possible mental or emotional repercussions of going through an experience like this?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

You know, I guess I would start with saying that I wouldn't want to describe us as broken because that suggests that people need to be fixed or maybe that they can't be repaired. But I do think a lot of people have gone through extremely

stressful times in this past year. As you mentioned, some people have lost loved ones and tragically that can't be repaired. Other people have been ill themselves. And that was an extremely frightening experience. Some people continue to experience physical and emotional symptoms even after they recovered from COVID. But I do think a lot of people have been stressed in lots of other ways. You know, people have lost jobs, lost businesses, had financial difficulties as a result, have been trying to help kids with homeschooling at home over Zoom, which has been really challenging for a lot of families. So, I do think there's been lots of stressors, and we know that some people are developing symptoms of depression, certainly symptoms of anxiety and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. I think one of the things that's been particularly unique about this traumatic time is that it has now gone on for a year, and we haven't known through this whole time, we haven't known when it's going to end. I mean, even now we're seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. We're seeing numbers coming down, thankfully, but you know, we're not out of the woods yet.

Pete Kenworthy

So, Doctor, what reactions are we looking for, both in ourselves and maybe in other people who are close to us? What types of things are we looking for that we need to act on? Like in other words, what's troublesome and then what can we do about those things?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yeah. You're asking a good question, because, of course, feeling anxious about the unknown, feeling down because of the isolation, those are all normal responses to this abnormal event, which is the pandemic. So, I do think it's important for people to check in with themselves and maybe with their close family and friends, and also check in about how they're sort of doing day to day to get a sense of, you know, are they okay or are they experiencing symptoms that might rise to the level of needing some kind of intervention? So, again, a certain amount of anxiety and a certain amount of feeling down is sort of a normal response, but at some point, depression and anxiety and PTSD become disorders that need treatment. And they are all treatable disorders with, with talking therapy and sometimes with medication. So, I do hope that people check in with themselves and their family members and their friends to just sort of see how they feel like they're doing. Are they able to go about, you know, their daily business without too much hindrance?

And also, as things do open up and we are able do a little bit more things, are they able to do that? I know I've talked with some people in recent weeks who are very anxious about sort of the rules changing. Like for this past year, it's been pretty clear: stay home as much as possible; wear a mask whenever you go out. And now that, you know, maybe things are going to be opening up a little people are anxious about that. As much as I think most people have missed our, you know, normal times, they're also anxious about COVID still being around and being, going out into public more. So, hopefully as I think, you know, I think sort of healthy response would be to experience some anxiety about going out again, because that seems normal after all this time. But if somebody was unable to go out and maybe, you know, they're fully vaccinated, they want to visit with their fully vaccinated parents or family members, if they couldn't bring themselves to do those things, that might suggest that their anxiety is sort of at a higher level and would be a good idea to get evaluated, to see if treatment was in order.

Macie Jepson

Before we talk a little bit more about that evaluation, Doctor, yeah, sometimes it's, it's so hard for us to see these issues in ourselves, and really we've all been living under the same roof with our families for so long that it's hard for us to even see it in our loved ones, because we haven't, we don't have that perspective of the outside looking in. So, my question to you would be, what do we look for to know that there is an issue? And it sounds like it all revolves really around being stuck, being stuck in life, but could you elaborate on that?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Well, so again, I think the things that are, you know, some of the most prevalent problems that we're seeing are depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder. And then certainly I didn't mention before, substance use disorders, cause many people have increased their use of alcohol and other substances during this time. So, I think that, you know, in psychiatry, one of the important components of something rising to the level of, of needing professional evaluation and treatment is how much it's interfering with the person's ability to function. And functioning, of course, would depend on the person's regular life. So, a person who's retired and doesn't have a lot of places they have to be at a certain time or things they have to do, you know, functioning for them would be a different picture than somebody who's now going back to working in person and has to show up and interact with a lot of people over the course of the day. And that’s sort of a higher expectation. And so we would hope that people would gradually be able make those transitions, and, you know, not, I'm not saying without any difficulty or any anxiety, but would be able to over the course of time adapt and make those transitions.

Pete Kenworthy

So, Doctor, I feel like something that's important here is to allow people to realize that what they're going through is okay, right? And it's completely normal, right? This is like going through trauma, right? PTSD and the things you talked about?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yes. I think that the pandemic has very much been a trauma for most people. I mean, we, you know, we sort of define trauma as the, the what's required to meet the challenges and the stressors. It overwhelms a person's either personal or family resources to do so. So, and for some people, again, it's been more traumatic than others. I don't want to minimize that for people who have lost family members, close friends, for people who have been seriously ill, those are tragic losses that can't, you know, can't be repaired. But what we know from other traumatic events and disasters, like, you know, natural disasters like a hurricane or a tornado where there's damage, sort of a one-time traumatic event, and there's a lot of damage in the subsequent period of time after a disaster, we know that most people will do okay when they are offered sort of practical kinds of support and connected with their natural supports in their community; family, friends, community supports. So, I do think for most people who have been struggling and having a difficult time through the pandemic, I think we can think of it as a normal response to an abnormal event, meaning this whole year of the pandemic being the abnormal event, and that most people will be able to utilize the supports in their lives and get back to functioning.

But I do think that for many people, this has been an extremely traumatic year, and people absolutely can develop post-traumatic stress disorder. In fact, you know, many people who were seriously ill with COVID and had to be hospitalized are turning out to meet diagnostic criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. The only good news about that is it it's a treatable condition.

We know that it's treatable with psychotherapy or talking therapy and sometimes with medication as well. And so if people are finding themselves, you know, bothered by intrusive memories or thoughts about the trauma, they're having nightmares, they're feeling more, they're more hypervigilant, they're easily, easily startled, they're having trouble sleeping, they're trying to avoid any kind of reminders of the event. Those are some of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder that, you know, people should watch out for. Now, the challenging thing in terms of avoiding is that the triggers are everywhere because if somebody lost, you know, if somebody lost a job or a business, and there's been a lot of financial difficulties over the course of the year, there might be all sorts of, all sorts of reminders at home of the impact of that. And certainly if family members have been lost, then there would be all sorts of reminders. And many people continue to have some physical symptoms even after they've recovered from COVID. And so those would be constant reminders. So, I think even though it's pretty understandable that people would want to avoid any reminders of something that's so traumatic, I think that's going to be less possible with this particular kind of traumatic event.

Macie Jepson

What does the science tell us about recovering from something like this? Do you need medical attention to get past it? Can you get past it on your own? Is there any science that really digs deep into PTSD?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Well, I think that, you know, as a psychiatrist, I tend to see people once they've sort of made the decision to seek treatment, right? So, by the time they come in contact with a psychiatrist, they usually do have a lot of symptoms and chances are do meet criteria for a psychiatric diagnosis. But sort of what I was saying before is that, I mean, many people will have some difficulty sleeping. They might, they might have difficult memories about early on in the pandemic or particularly if there was a loss in their family or they were sick. But it really comes down again to how well is a person able to function, you know, currently. So, we don't, we don't define normal as… well, that's a word that sort of hard to define in any event…but it doesn't mean without any difficulties, because, of course, it's normal, a normal human experience to have difficulties adjusting. And, you know, Macie, as you were describing your daughter, I think it's normal to look back and say, oh, look, remember when we were able to get together. And that was a year ago, and we haven't been together in that way since then. I think that kind of processing is normal. And, and probably we're all going to be doing more of that as we try to make this next transition.

So, I think the important part is how someone's functioning. And then what we know about treatment is that we know that psychotherapy, talking therapy, as well as medications help for many psychiatric disorders: depression, anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder, substance use disorders. And certainly there are, you know, other kinds of treatments that are often used in the treatment of substance use disorders, like intensive outpatient groups or other 12 step groups are commonly used to treat substance use disorders. But I guess the important takeaway from the science is that these are treatable disorders.

Pete Kenworthy

Doctor, you talk about seeking help if it's necessary, but I'm sure a lot of people don't even know how to do that. Right? Let's, let's say we have figured out that we need someone to help us get through this. Who do I go see? Right? Do I see a psychiatrist, a psychologist, or, or what kind of doctor? And how do I figure that out? I mean, people would tend to just go to Google, right? Like here's what I'm feeling, you know, who do I see? What, what kind of advice can you give people for that?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yeah, that's a really good question because I do think it can be sometimes a complicated process. So, in general, you know, talking therapy can be done by somebody who's a psychologist or a clinical social worker or a licensed professional counselor and certainly by psychiatrists as well. But sometimes psychiatrists’ scope is more focused on when people need medication. And so that's in general, that's sort of how people slice the mental health providers that way. And when people are seeking treatment for a substance use disorder, usually the first step would be to have an evaluation with an addiction counselor or a person with a social work background who specializes in addiction. And part of that initial encounter would be to help people, to end with a recommendation of sort of what level of care. You know, do they need to see an outpatient counselor? Would they be recommended to come into a program that was an intensive outpatient program, which is a few hours a day, about three times a week, et cetera? So, people don't have to have it all figured out before they call. The person that they will talk to will help with that. That's part of the initial goal. And if, you know, outside of a UH system, any department of psychiatry would be a place to start, or in our county, we have an alcohol drug and mental health services board that also could direct people to resources within the community within Cuyahoga County.

Macie Jepson

And for those who already have a primary care physician, would that be a good place to start in trying to figure out next steps and connecting with, with the appropriate person?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yes, absolutely. That's a great reminder that people can always make an appointment to see their primary care provider. And in fact, many times that's a good place to start because sometimes there can be a medical issue going on that, that can contribute to how a person's feeling and they might, you know, they might not sort of put that together. So, the primary care provider would evaluate any kind of medical issues and then could make a referral to a mental health provider.

Pete Kenworthy

Dr. Clegg, we're going to come back to you in just a minute to talk about how relationships have been impacted. But before that, let's bring in Dr. Ahmad for a few thoughts on kids here. And Dr. Ahmad, first off here, what kind of reactions are we seeing now, or might we see in our children soon coming out of this pandemic?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

I think it's important to understand that children and adolescents may respond differently to the changes that have resulted from the pandemic. I think initially my colleagues and I were seeing that some children and adolescents actually seem to be doing pretty well, but others were starting to demonstrate struggles with school, social isolation, and some of the other social and public health ramifications of the pandemic. And I think over the last several months, we have really seen the pandemic and the quarantine take its toll. Those who are struggling are showing signs of irritability, excessive anxiety about themselves or loved ones, loss of interest in activities, loss of concentration or focus, changes in their sleep or appetite patterns. And more seriously, we're starting to see more adolescents and children struggle with thoughts of self-harm. They, children and adolescents might not want to seek social interaction as the pandemic improves and restrictions are removed. But others may want to, though are scared to do so, or may or may not know how to do so in a healthy and safe manner.

Macie Jepson

We were going to follow up with how parents can support their children, Doctor. But I think first what you just said begs the question: they were doing pretty good and then some of them weren't. And why do you, why is that exactly, do you think?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

Well, I think the ones who were doing pretty good in the beginning either, you know, some of them may have had social anxiety or school-based anxiety to begin with. And so staying at home wasn't too difficult for them. But, you know, as time has gone on and it has dragged on and there hasn't, at times there didn't seem to be an end in sight, I think the natural consequence of it was that people started to become more tired of everything that was going on. Stress either the home or outside the home may have increased. There might have been other social factors that were contributing to a decline in functioning. And, you know, I think for the most part where the patients I've seen and the ones that I speak to, I speak about with my colleagues have really struggled with the change in the format of school and restrictions on, you know, their ability to participate in extracurricular activities, ability to interact with their friends and other factors.

Macie Jepson

So, how can parents support their children through this? How should we react when we see these behaviors that you described?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

The most important thing, I think, is to demonstrate to your child and adolescent that you are there for them and willing to listen. Increasing communication and checking in with your child or adolescent in an open and non-judgment manner can be very helpful. In these situations, sometimes it's easy to put blame and sometimes it's easy to come down hard on certain behaviors. But it's important to try to minimize blame as much as possible to help children and adolescents feel safe and comfortable in sharing their feelings. Finding ways to implement a routine or structure can also be tremendously helpful. It's also important, I think, to acknowledge that caregivers are struggling during this time, and to whatever degree parents and caregivers can attempt to self-care and take steps to optimize their own emotional, mental and physical energy so that they can continue to care for their loved ones will be really helpful in the short and long-term.

Pete Kenworthy

So, one of the things we just mentioned to Dr. Clegg was that I think it's important for kids to realize that it's okay to be feeling differently, right? Okay to be going through some things that maybe they're not used to going through. And that's certainly something we can do as parents as well. But I guess the next stage of that question is when does it get to a point that we do need to seek help beyond our home? Right? There is, are there certain things we should be looking for? And then in addition to that, with whom should we seek that help? Right? You know, people don't necessarily know who to go to: psychiatrist, psychologist, you know. So, I guess kind of a two-part question there. What should we look for and who should we seek help from?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

That's an excellent question. I think, you know, first it's important to recognize that any changes in behavior or any changes from a child or adolescent’s baseline would be concerning. So, things that we look for are, you know, mood fluctuations or changes in sleep, changes in appetite. Some other warning signs might include substance use, new onset substance use, changes in grooming or hygiene. And then, you know, the most serious thought or most serious symptom would be thoughts of harm to self or others. Those would all be warning signs that maybe your child or adolescent needs professional help. And there are several forms of professional help available. There are therapists or counselors that can talk to children, adolescents, you know, provide supportive treatment, talk about coping strategies, provide a safe space to discuss concerns. Other times they might need to see a physician, whether that's a pediatrician or a family doctor or a psychiatrist, to consider whether or not medications would be helpful in stabilizing moods and addressing behavioral concerns. Other forms of help could include working with case managers or social workers to address any social needs that your child or adolescent might have. Communicating with schools, talking with the teachers, talking with school counselors in terms of making sure that warning signs aren't going unrecognized is going to be really helpful, too.

Macie Jepson

So, Doctor, it seems like with the vaccination and children going back to school and socializing again, that we could come out the other end of this and that everything would seem brighter and better. But is that really over simplifying matters? I mean, kids have lost a lot in this year, and I do wonder what the long-term effects of, of that loss will be.

Dr. Erum Ahmad

Absolutely. And I think we're only just starting to understand it. I have come across many articles in the recent days about the short and long-term impact of this. We're seeing rise in body image concerns, rise in substance use, rise in adverse childhood experiences, so, experiences like abuse, exposure to abuse or neglect or trauma. So, you know, I would love to think, I think we all thought, oh, this is going to be, you know, initially we all thought this was going to be a four to five week thing. And then we started to prepare ourselves, oh it was going to be several months and things were going to get back to normal. But I think we all have to brace ourselves with what is going to be a new normal. And I worry, too, about the impact on development in early ages. When you talk, when you think about how important social interaction and communication with others is in those early years, you know, I think we're not going to completely appreciate the impact of it for years to come. That being said, I think there are ways that we can intervene and try to at least lessen the impact and the consequences of the pandemic and to provide as much support and resources to these kids to help develop resilience and improve functioning both in the short-term and long-term.

Pete Kenworthy

So, Dr. Ahmad, my guess is those extreme reactions are going to be easy, easier to identify, right? But many kids may be going through stuff that isn't as easy to identify, but maybe it's these slight changes. Right? And so we know that something's bothering them, but it's not to any extreme point that we feel maybe like we need to seek help from an outside source. What can we do as parents? What can we do to help get them through this? And, and whether normal is a new normal or normal is the old normal, what kind of advice are you giving to parents who are struggling to figure out what to do for their kids?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

That's a question that I think has multiple possible solutions or answers. For some people. I, you know, we've talked about, you know, finding new ways of finding joy and happiness during this time, you know, whether that's focusing on an activity that you enjoy with your family that you can do, learning a new hobby, finding some way of making meaning out of this experience and this past year. And that could include, you know, whatever the strength is of your child or adolescent. For example, if they're really into arts and crafts, focusing on creating something artistic or some project like a quilt or a painting together is a sort of a sign of progress. Or some individuals, some kids I know have taken up cooking, and they've become the master shops of the household. So, for some, it might be just like picking up a new hobby or an activity to find joy. And for some, it might be creating new routines or new structures. So, you know, for example, if you used to go bowling on Friday nights, but that's no longer a thing, finding some way of doing something similar in a quarantine or COVID friendly fashion, whether that's going for a walk or doing movie night at home, really trying to maintain the line of communication, I think as much as possible and finding ways that engages your child and adolescent in the world that they're currently living in. It's a matter of meeting them where they're at and finding what brings them joy and what would help them to feel happy and safe and less distressed during this time. I think the other also thing to say, you know, kids look to us, look to adults to tell them how the world is, and trying to be as truthful as possible with how, what the current situation is, and, but also providing reassurance that things do have the potential to get better also can be helpful.

Macie Jepson

So, Doctor, we've spent a lot of time under our roof with our children and parents may think that that's great; kids, maybe not. So, is there anything good specifically that children can take away from this experience?

Dr. Erum Ahmad

I always try to encourage patients and children and adolescents and everyone to think about the positives and to think about the strengths of a situation. And I think that a trying time such as the pandemic really has the ability to bring out one's strengths. And, you know, whether in the beginning it was about slowing down and not having all the extra commitments and all the extra, you know, after work or after school obligations, everyone was sort of forced to slow down for a bit and take stock of things, to take stock of their priorities. Think about, you know, how to make everything count for some kids. It was, you know, they picked up a new hobby or they started to think more about their identity and who, who they are in this world and what, what they want out of life. For others. It was, you know, a test in patience and resilience. And, you know, these kids have gone through something remarkable that many in older generations didn't have to go through necessarily. And for them to come out on the other side having survived it, I think that's a, that's a big, that's something to really applaud them for. And it's something that they're going to look back now, you know, 10, 15 decades later, 10, 15 years, decades later thinking, wow, we made it. And if we can just remember that and remind children and adolescents of that, you know, it's so important. It's so helpful to think about what were the positives. And, you know, one thing that we know about now is the science of gratitude and the benefits of gratitude. So, in my work with children and adolescents, we always talk about what is it that you're grateful for, even in, when things are difficult, if you can find one tidbit or one moment of happiness or gratitude in your otherwise distressful day, that can be really impactful in terms of finding meaning and happiness.

Pete Kenworthy

Dr. Ahmad, thank you so much. It’s hugely helpful, and really great insight and advice for us and, and, and dealing with and helping our kids moving forward. So, thank you for that.

Dr. Erum Ahmad

Of course. Anytime.

Macie Jepson

Dr. Clegg, I want to talk a little bit about relationships. You know, I mean, living under the same roof for a year with your loved one can be the best of times or the worst of times. And could you talk about what is normal about those, those bumps along the way during a pandemic? And then also, you know, I think some people may think, oh, it's just got to end and we're going to go back to the way it was, and it's going to be wonderful or even better because we're going to get out and enjoy life. But that may end up not being the case for some couples. Right?

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yeah. I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I think probably everybody has experienced it as somewhat stressful, even if, even if there has been some positives of people working at home, I think, you know, a change in routine and being at home, you know, particularly if, you know, maybe both members of a couple are trying to work from home and now there's children at home, that, you know, that's a stressor in terms of who's going to try to work while the other one's taking care of children. You know, I think that, I think we don't know how things will be for couples as they try to get back to, you know, their normal lives after this. You know, probably for some who have been, you know, working from home and trying to help children learn at home, and now the children are going back to school and they're able to sort of get back in their routines of work, my guess is that many people will weather that transition without too many major bumps, even though it'll be an adjustment. And I think in other cases there might have been stressors in the relationship that are not going to just bounce back to how things were before. And again, we recognize that couples therapy much less much like individual therapy can be really helpful. You know, in some cases where there's been increased use of substances, that can be particularly problematic, not just for the individual using substances, but for the whole family. We know there's been increased incidents of domestic violence in some households and less ability for people to access services. And that's also the case with substance use for, as things went virtual in terms of treatment resources, many people found that difficult to access. So, I think that, I think we can't predict, although I expect that many people will be able to make that transition without major bumps. And if there are significant changes in the relationship, then I would encourage couples to seek couples therapy to try to navigate those.

Pete Kenworthy

So, as hard as this may be to believe, some people have actually found some positives in a pandemic, right? Some people have gotten closer relationships with their spouse or their partner or with their children, you know, learning to enjoy home life and the slower pace of living. How do we preserve that? Right? How do we preserve the positives as we move back toward that post pandemic life or in many cases, a busier life again, right? We're, we're leaving the house again. Our kids are leaving the house again, and we're going back into those same routines that we did before the pandemic started, but we want to hang on to that stuff that was actually positive. Right? We got closer with our kids and our spouses in some cases.

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yeah. I think that, I'm hoping that, myself included, I hope that we'll all, you know, really make choices about what to add back. You know, I think that everybody has, had gotten so busy than it really had sort of spiraled a little bit on the control. People would often talk about being too busy. And so I hope as we've had this period where we've been home and we've really significantly limited our activities, I hope that as we begin to add activities and obligations back that we can be really choiceful and deliberate about which ones to add back so that we don't jump from the stress of being isolated and alone at home to the stress of now being too busy and not having that family time. So, that would be my sort of best suggestion about how to preserve the good part, because I do think that there have been some positives about slowing down, about being home with our immediate household more, about having to make conscious choices about who to try to stay in contact with because so much communication has been virtual. You know, I think people have had to be very intentional and deliberate about, you know, having the Zoom call with, or a FaceTime call with children's grandparents or with close friends. And we, most of us haven't been able to maintain contact with so many people that we used to interact with probably on a, on a regular basis. And, and some of that people may very much look forward to getting back to, but I would get, I guess, just the intentional decisions about what to add back.

Macie Jepson,

Can we stay along this, this path for just one more minute, Dr. Clegg, and we've talked about a lot of positives that have come out of this pandemic relationship-wise, but can we talk a little bit about emotional or mental positives? I don't know anybody who's going to take life for granted anymore, you know, for instance. But I'd love for you to touch on, on what you see as some emotional or positives from this.

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Yeah. I think that, well, I think you mentioned a big one, which is that people have gotten in touch with what's really important to them in life, and been able to prioritize those. And so that's a wonderful reminder for all of us. I think people have sometimes surprised and impressed themselves with their ability to be resilient and to meet the challenges. And I do think for all of us, when we're able to successfully meet a challenge, then we develop a little more competence and confidence. And then the next challenge that comes around, we're a little more able to face that because we can tell ourselves, well, gosh, I managed to get through this year of the pandemic; I can certainly handle this next thing. And I think that it has also allowed people to appreciate what they do have in their life. Not so long ago, I was speaking with a patient of mine, and he said, you know, I made a list of all the things I want to get back to when the pandemic's over. And he said, I realized all the things that were on my list were things I had in my life before that I just want to get back to. And he said, I guess I'm pretty content with my life. And so that, you know, he was sort of pleasantly surprised with that awareness and realized that he didn't really want for more than he had before. He just wanted to get back to the kinds of things that were already part of what he had been doing, but hasn't been able to in this past year.

Pete Kenworthy

I think it's a really nice place to end this difficult topic on a positive note, you know, and hope for a lot of post pandemic positivity as, as we move forward here. So, Dr. Kathy Clegg, we really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

Dr. Kathy Clegg

Oh, thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Pete Kenworthy

And thanks to both of our doctors for their time. We truly appreciate it. Remember, you can find and subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Google podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just go ahead and search University Hospitals or Healthy@UH, depending on where you subscribe.

Macie Jepson

For more health news, advice from medical experts and Healthy@UH podcasts, go to UHHospitals.org/blog.